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The cost to France of Greece's exit from the euro would be 66 billion euros, and for Germany 90 billion euros, according to the director of research at the IESEG School of Management in Lille, France. Greece would pay back some of its debt with the devalued currency, so the actual cost might be lower. This is closer to the estimate of 50 billion euros for France by the departing French finance minister, and the estimate of 125 billion euros for Germany by a German bank. IIF estimates are much higher but the IIF and Mr. Dallara will find the bonds issued by Greece under the restructuring of little value in the event of exit from the euro, which is why it would not favor an exit and present it in a different light.

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Greek leader Alexis Tsipras of the Syriza party, the Coalition of the Radical Left, talks to Angelos and Granitsas of the Journal. He says it is in the interests of the European Union to continue funding to Greece, but if the EU stops the funding Greece will stop paying its debt. It will then use the funds going to the debt burden for paying retirees and workers. And it will also tear up the loan agreements signed earlier, and scrap plans for layoff of 150,000 workers in the government services by 2015. He would also reverse measures to lower private sector wages. He also looks favorably on nationalizing banks to better channel lending to where its needed. In his view it will be difficult for Greece either way. Even with funding Greece's GDP is expected to fall 5-7% in 2012, following several years of declining GDP.

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Christopher Power talks to three former IMF officials. If offered the Greece portfolio at the IMF, Simon Johnson, (a former IMF official) says he would ask for a transfer to Iceland, because Greece is incredibly complex, with the IMF unlikely to impose conditions. Especially with IMF chief Dominique Strauss Kahn's aspirations to become President of France. The ECB controls Greek monetary policy and there is no chance of a devaluation with the Greeks in the euro currency. This leaves Greece locked into an unsustainable currency rate. Kenneth Rogoff and Michael Mussa, both agree that the IMF can help buy time for Greece with bridge loans and laying a framework for confidence. Mussa points to the Greek problem- the credit markets won't buy their bonds forever and at the same time its a nasty business to have a sovereign default in the euro currency area. Mussa sees the situation as much like that of GM. Bush bought time for an orderly transition should GM have to declare bankruptcy, which is what happened under Obama. With the European recovery weak, Portugal and Spain fragile, an orderly arrangement is critical not to upset markets. Its like kicking the can down the street, says Mussa, but that can have some advantages. ...

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Bondholders and the Greek government are stalled in talks and waiting for Germany and the IMF to come up with the 14.5 billion euros that is due on March 20, 2012. It may suit the bondholders holding out for a higher interest rate in the 4-5% range for the new bonds to be issued at 50% of face value with long term maturities, but is bad for Europe. This Journal editorial points out that this is bad for European taxpayers and points to other steps that can be taken which are being discussed in European circles. One step is for acollective action clause to be inserted for the existing Greek bonds under which all bondholders have to accept losses if two thirds of the bondholders agree to accept losses. To ensure the safety of the Greek banking system Greece would restructure the bonds held by Greek banks so that they continue to be acceptable as collateral with the ECB, and issue new bonds to the ECB with face values, interest rates and maturities matching existing holdings. The idea is to make it possible for Greece to reduce its total debt and its debt servicing costs- which is really the only way out of the crisis. The ECB and Greece would use the collective action clause to restructure the Greek debt to reduce interest and debt servicing costs on new bonds to be issued. The Journal editorial says it should also mean Greece and the ECB are not required to put up the 30 billion euros in up-front cash that was agreed to in a poorly devised agreement in 2011....

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Failure by EU leaders to take early and decisive action to reduce Greece's debt to sustainable levels in 2009. This was when the IMF report by Dutchman Bob Traa blew the cover off the Greek coverup of deteriorated finances. Policy missteps included ECB president Trichet and other EU leaders pushing austerity measures and not taking needed tough action on reducing the debt. By November 2011 a 50% reduction in debt with bondholders taking the losses is not enough to correct the situation. Greece's debt is discounted by 70% by Nov 2011. Analysts estimate an 85% reduction in Greek debt being necessary for Greece to pull through without a default.

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The steps taken at a meeting of Europe's leaders in March 2011. The European Financial Stability Facility will be allowed to disburse its entire 440 billion euros if needed, and it will be allowed to buy bonds in government auctions but not on the secondary market. Interest rates were reduced on loans to Greece and repayment terms were extended. But this fund can only buy bonds of countries receiving bailout money, which means Portugal will not see a decline in its interest rates for benchmark government bonds. Interest rates on Portuguese 10 year bonds remained high at 7.4%. Greek bonds saw a lowering of interest rates, but Ireland saw no change. What is needed now is a plan that will bring interest rates down for these countries, say analysts. And they say the plan agreed on by EU leaders fall short. If interest rates do not go down for these countries the debt keeps piling up, especially when austerity measures lower the economic growth rates of Greece and Portugal. Both Greece and Portugal do not have a competitive export industry, which places the burden entirely on austerity measures and revenue raising steps. The perverse scenario analysts fear is that debt continues to grow because of high interest rates at low or declining growth rates. While some relief was offered to Greece the situation is still precarious, and analysts estimate Greece's debt increasing to 160% of GDP from 127 % of GDP by 2013....

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Philipp Rosler, head of the FDP party and Germany's Economy minister, says he opposes further involvement by German taxpayers or the ECB in the debt restructuring for Greece. He pointed out that the current negotiations between Greece and the bondholders (mostly French and German banks) were about private sector involvement. Tax payers of Germany and other European countries are already making a contribution he said. The IMF is pushing for the ECB to take a haircut or writedown on the $40 billion of Greek bonds it holds to supplement the haircut taken by bondholders of over 50%. Rosler said in an interview with the Journal that Athens should keep its side of the bargain by implementing reforms and not letting them just be on paper. On Germany or the EU directly taking responsibility over the Greek budget, Rosler said this should be the responsibility of the Greek parliament. At the same time he pointed out that its important to have a specific and rigorous montiroing process just to be fair to taxpayers in the EU....

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Anger in Greece at the austerity measures was evident in the results of the April 2012 elections. The two major parties polled even less than the low poll numbers that they expected. The Socialist Pasok party of former premier Papandreou received only 13% of the vote and not the 15-18% expected, the New Democracy party of Antonio Samaras received only 18.8% and not the 25% expected. As a result the two main parties that have ruled Greece received less than one third of the vote combined. The second largest party after New Democracy is now the Coalition of the Radical Left or Syriza, which received 16.78% of the vote. It is led by young Alexis Tsipras, 38, who has said the bailout treaties witht the EU and the IMF were "not salvation, but a tragedy." Syriza opposes the austerity measures and prefers to exit the eurozone. A extremist far right anti-immigrant party New Dawn received 7% of the vote showing the desperate situation. New Democracy's Samaras tried hard but failed to form a government, and under the Greek constitution each party gets a few days to form a government. The outcome is likely to be new elections in June 2012 and a caretaker government appointed by the president....

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The IMF loans of $18 billion approved in March 2014 are conditional on structural reforms in Ukraine which will be painful. This includes a 50% increase in the price of natural gas on May 1, tax increases and spending cuts, flexible exchange rates. About 10% of the state officals will be cut and decreases in pensions for judges. Higher taxes will be placed on alcohol and tobacco products. Prime minister Yatsenuyk, says without the reforms and IMF-EU loans the economy woud contract by 10%, with the package GDP would decline by 3%. Ukraine's 10 year dollar denominated government bonds had a yield of 8.94%. Years of large state subsidies for natural gas, mismanagement and corruption have left Ukraine's finances in bad shape. Ukraine now faces austerity measures similiar to that in other Eastern European countries and Greece, leading to continued political unrest.

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The Bank of Cyprus and the Cyprus Popular Bank (Laiki Bank), passed stress tests given by the EU in 2010 and 2011. By the end of 2010- even as other banks such as Barclays were cutting their Greece government bonds by over 50%- the two banks held 5.8 billion euros of Greece bonds, over $1 billion euros larger exposure to Greece than nine months earlier, according to European regulators. Regulatory supervision failed to alert the banks and the banks risk management failed to see the warning signs in Greece. The Laiki Bank Risk Officer went in the opposite direction actually increasing exposure to Greece, saying in a conference call in August 2010, that he had used the bank's capital position "to deepen selectively some highly profitable client relationships." What went wrong with the stress tests by the EU regulators in July 2010 of these two banks, was that the tests looked at what would happen if economic conditions deteriorated, but did not consider the possibility that government bonds could produce losses. The two banks suffered total booked losses of 4.3 billion euros in 2013 from holdings of Greece bonds. The EU stress tests of July 2010 showed the two banks having total of 572 million in surplus capital. The two banks then went on to issue dividends in 2010-2011 totalling 141 million euros. By March 2013 the Laiki Bank was "on respirator" for a few months, according to the Central Bank of Cyprus, until the 10 billion euro EU bailout in March 2013 with the closing of Laiki Bank and the sharp downsizing of Bank of Cyprus....

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Putin's Russia year end QA sessions- "Direct Line" Marathon of 3 million questions. Two from the BBC. Answering the BBC Putin said "if you don't cheat us like you cheated us with Nato's eastward expansion", there would be no more war activity from Russia. Putin believes NATO and European leaders had promised no expansion to Gorbachev before the Soviet Union collapsed. Archives from 1950 show that NATO was formed as Soviets expanded after World War II. At the time Truman took up defense of Turkey and Greece from Soviet expansion. As Eastern Europe became part of the Soviet sphere the situation went on from 1950 to 1990 of 40 years with regional wars in Korea, Vietnam. The Russian leaders including Putin who set Russia on the path to economic recovery had a deep sense of loss of respect as Russia was treated as another European country by Netherlands, Britain and France, Germany former colonial powers that had difficult relations with Russia. It is this deep sense of loss of respect that these leaders felt after the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia suffered economic and political decline from 1990 to 2000 which was reversed by decades of economic growth. This was a period of economic growth in China. As China asserted itself in Hong Kong, Russia pushed back in Crimea and Ukraine regions that had long ties with Russia of language and culture. Had western leaders disbanded NATO and formed a new alliance with new goals with a vision for peaceful coexistence with Russia in the east the situation could have turned to be different. In 2025 the European powers Germany, France and Britain are not willing to see Russia gain points from the outright invasion of Ukraine presenting new obstacles to a peaceful settlement. Ukrainian sentiment is also a factor as giving parts of Donetsk would be unpopular.  ...

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Eirini Vourloumis of the New York Times has an extensive 90 minute interview with prime minister Lucas Papademos of Greece. Papademos says he will consider legislation requiring holdouts among bondholders to take losses if no agreement is reached with all bondholders to write down Greece's debt. The IMF, the ECB, and the EU require an agreement before lending more funds to Greece. Papademos is a former vice president of the ECB. His view is that the EU should have acted quickly to tackle the debt problem in Greece in mid 2010, and growth measures should have been taken earlier. He also stated that vested interests with political connections were blocking the changes needed to help the Greek economy recover. He expects elections will be held in Greece in April 2012.

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Experts say there may not be much difference whether a voluntary deal is reached between Greece and the Institute of International Finance or a deal is forced on private bondholders by Greece for the 93% of Greek bonds that are based on Greek laws. Most of the large banks that hold Greek bonds will be subject to persuasion by European authorites (EU, ECB) to accept the deal offered by Greece that brings debt down to 120% of GDP by 2020. The remaining holdouts are the hedge funds that will want to opt out of a voluntary arrangement anyway, because a forced deal by Greece would allow them to collect payments on their credit default swaps. Adam Lerrick, an expert on sovereign debt restructurings, says the hedge funds and other private bondholders are framing the discussion into one of a voluntary agreement that is orderly and an involuntary agreement that is disorderly, as a tactic to scare the European authorites (the EU, ECB) and Greece. He says not only can forced restructurings be orderly, but in this case the improved prospects for Greece with serious debt reduction would lead to a ratings upgrade for Greece. Some hedge funds have said they will sue if forced into the deal. Michael Waibel, at the Lauerpacht Centre for International Law at Cambridge University, says the case would first go to Greek courts where it would be received without much sympathy, and then to the European Court of Human Rights. Only the small number of bonds under Swiss and English law with pari passu clauses insisting on equal treatment of bondholders have any prospects, and even then legal enforcement of any awards is uncertain as shown in the case of Argentina. The 93% of bonds under Greek law have no such clauses and this gives Greece the option for special treatment of bonds held by the ECB....

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The IMF promised to increase the aid package to Greece from $45 billion to $120 billion. Together with aid from the EU and Germany the total would come to $160 billion. This after the markets responded negatively to efforts by Greece to obtain funds. With the junk rating for Greek bonds Greece is effectively cut off from the markets and it makes it increasingly difficullt to roll over debt including $8 billion euros due May 19, 2010. Equally significant are the rumblings being heard about Spain, which is a much larger country than Greece, and an economy 5 times as large. An IMF loan to Spain would have to be significantly larger.

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This report by Landon Thomas Jr. of the NYT describes what happened in the days before and the 48 hours before the referendum decision was announced by June 27, 2015. It shows talks progressing right up to Monday, June 22, 2015. By June 23 Greece received a paper marked in red from the IMF, EU and the ECB on their proposal of June 22. The Greek proposal of June 22 rejected pension cuts and removal of tax breaks for Greek islands, but proposing instead a series of tax increases and increase in pension contributions to be made by companies in Greece. The reply marked up disagreement areas on the paper which voiced objections to too many tax increases as hurting business growth, need to simplify value added taxes, and insisting on pension cuts and reforms. The two advisors Tsipras had used were a complete contrast to the new advisor and finance minister Mr. Tsakalotos he was to use in negotiations after July 7, 2015. Nikos Pappas is described here as an academic with a temper and Varoufakis as a person who would not hesitate to confront and lecture the creditors negotiators. Varoufakis who already had arguments and shouting matches with his counterparts on the other side, had a difficult relationship with the Dutch finance minister, Dijsselbloem, who was the chief of eurozone finance ministers. Dijseelbloem especially objected to Varoufakis lecturing on the need for a debt haircut. Varoufakis was removed from the discussions for a period of several weeks as a result and his reintroduction on June 25 was to have a negative effect on the EU and German negotiators. The same issue of debt came up again in discussions on June 25, 2015, and Varoufakis confronted the EU ministers by calling on the IMF's Christine Lagarde to state if the debt was sustainable. Before that Dijsselbloem had already told him flatly that any discussion on debt reduction would make a deal impossible. At one point German finance minister Schauble argued with EU official Pierre Muscovici of France about his favorable comments on the Greece proposal, saying he could not get the Greek proposal through the German parliament, and saying the ony solution now was capital controls. IMF's Christine Lagarde responded by saying that debt reduction needed to be considered. According to this report the Dutch finance mnister did not wait for Lagarde to explain- he told Varoufakis that it was take it or leave it....

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This editorial deserves an award for best editorial on international economic matters in 2011. The editorial, goes right to the point, when it says the French, the Germans, and the European Central Bank are deluding themselves if they call this weeks resolution of the Greece debt crisis a realistic solution. It is anything but a solution. The Journal calls it a French deception. It is unworkable because the main problem, the high ratio of Greek debt to GDP -which is now 155% and is expected to reach 170% by the end of 2011- is sure to get worse under the arrrangement designed in the interest of French and German banks. Under the arrangement French and German banks and other creditors will get to double their return from 4-5% today to an effective interest rate of 10% if Greece grows by 2% a year, on 49% of the bonds they hold. These bonds will be converted into 30 year bonds. This effectively doubles the interest cost for Greece in servicing this debt. On the other approximately 51% of the bonds the French and German banks would redeem the bonds for cash and a triple A, sovereign zero coupon bond. The Journal asks what is the point of making Greece's debt problem worse than it is now and calling it a solution. The austerity cuts are already expected to lead to a deep recession, something that is also happening in Portugal, leading to a worsening of the debt situation. Creditors are not sharing in the losses under this arrangement, as Germany and the Netherlands have insisted. As the Journal points out they are instead taking out half of their investment and doubling their return on the remainder. And the fears of contagion for Spain are not lessened, as financial markets can clearly see through this for what it is- unworkable and unrealistic. ...

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This article in the Economist describes the different perspectives on the Greece crisis in July 2015 as seen inside Germany. It cites a poll showing German 51% to 41% favoring a Greek exit from the eurozone. About 85% reject further concessions in a July 1, 2015 poll, including 68% of the supporters of The Left, a post-Communist party. Social Democrats leader Sigmar Gabriel, said of the Greece timeout from the euro proposal by finance minister Schauble- that it was the appropriate thing to consider all options. And 78% polled see Greeks not keeping their side of the deal. Some experts see stronger sentiment about Greece after the events in July 2015, and the raising of the issue of the debt haircut given to Germany in 1953, because Germans see themselves as having gone to great lengths to build a strong Europe after their own troubled history in the 20th century. If the goal was to win German support in 2015, this has come across as poor tactics and poor strategy, considering how it has changed German opinion across the spectrum of political opinion....

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The IMF's latest economic report says there is a very real risk that Greece's debt crisis could spread. "Contagion to the euro area, and then onwards to emerging Europe, remains a tangible downside risk," the report says. Sentiment in the financial markets is for Greece restructuring its debt, possibly as soon as late 2011. Increasingly the concern focusses on Greece never being able to pay back the $464 billion in debt, as a result pushing losses onto bondholders and banks in Europe. The IMF's director for Western hemisphere, Nicolas Eyzaguirre, said Latin America is in danger of going into a full blown economic crisis if the situation is not managed correctly with overheating in their economies. Speaking at a conference of central bankers in Rio de Janeiro, he said the Latin American region could see major weakness in currencies with an external shock such as drop in commodities prices or increase in U.S. interest rates. He said Brazil "should rein in the economy through an array of measures to avoid excessive exuberance, or it could end in tears."...

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Analysts do not see how Greece could avoid restructuring its debt. Debt for Greece is expected to grow in coming years. The 110 billion euro bailout of Greece by the European Union and the IMF does not reduce Greek debt- as the bailout comes as more loans. The EU estimate is that Greece's debt will go up to 375 billion euros in 2013 from 298 billion euros in 2009. Kenneth Wattret, chief euro-zone economist at BNP Paribas, says the markets are already pricing in some form of restructuring. This would include some form of "haircut" for bondholders. A restructuring presents several problems. Brussels think tank Bruegel estimates 20% of Greece's government debt is held by local banks which are weak financially. These banks will need some help if they are to take new losses. About one third of Greece debt is held by pension funds and insurance companies and these institutions may have to be stress tested before taking losses. And 80 billion of the bailout money came from euro-zone countries as direct loans, this would mean losses for these lenders....

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The IMF's managing director, Christine Lagarde, pointed to the urgent need to recapitalize European banks in September 2011. European banks face potential losses of 120 billion euros for Belgium, Spain and Italy, 60 billion euros for Greece, 20 billion euros for Ireland and Portugal, and 100 billion euros for other banking exposure, for a total of 300 billion euros, according to the International Monetary Fund. In the absence of recapitalization there could be further damage to EU economies from restricted lending by banks. IMF estimates show that deteriorating credit conditions could damage growth in the eurozone countries by 3.5 percentage points, and in the U.S. by 2.2 percentage points, creating another recession.

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The Economist warns in this editorial and cover issue that if Germany and the European Union do not act fast the Greek crisis could have a Lehmann like effect on Europe's banking systems, with a sovereign default. This would threaten the weaker economies of Portugal, Spain and Italy. As Simon Johnson has done on the pages of the New York Times, the Economist calls the German government and Chancellor Angela Merkel's handling of this crisis filled with ineptitude. Instead of leading the German people and giving a true account of things she followed public opinion- to see that Greece was punished for its mistakes and to provide a lukewarm show of support. A true account would have shown how Germay has gained from the euro, the huge portion of Greek debt that German banks hold, and the losses that the government would have to step in and avert in its banking system if Greece defaulted. Waiting till after a big regional election in Germany on May 9, was to show a lack of grasp of how such a crisis could explode if Greece in the meantime was shut out of capital markets (yield on Greek bonds shot up to 20%). Helping Greece was more in Germany's interest than an act of charity that public opinion in Germany seems to think it is. Other mistakes the Economist cites are- the idea that going to the IMF would be humiliating thus not bringing in the IMF actively much earlier. In the view of these experts it is the ineptitude that led to the loss of confidence in financial markets that now necessitates a much larger aid package for Greece, from $60 billon to $150 billion. The other is to have a slow decision making machinery in the Eurozone and knowing this not to have taken more aggressive action. Suggestions from the Economist as an adhoc measure- set up a single crisis management committee to make quick decisions. Set up a firewall between Greece and the other states like Spain and Italy so that contagion does not spread, with these countries also being shut out of financial markets at some future date if the situation deteriorates. The other is that the European governments should setup inter-governmental liquidity lines, and the European Central Bank act using the new arrangements....

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James Pressley reviews Simon Johnson and James Kwak's new book - "13 Bankers: The Wall Street Takeover and the Next Financial Meltdown. " He suggests reading the first and last chapter for what the authors recommend, limiting banks to no more than 4% of GDP in assets or $570 billion maximum, and investment banks to 2% of GDP or $285 billion. Pressley agrees that incremental steps are not going to change the situation. And the authors have thought this thing through, with Simon Johnson, a former chief economist at the IMF and writer of the Economix columns in the New York Times on the current crisis in Greece, Portugal and Spain. Some of their analysis on that crisis has been borne out by developments, as Greece lurched towards default with the slow response of Germany enlarging the dimensions of the crisis, and requiring a larger bailout for Greece of $160 billion in late April.

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A critical flaw in the IMF and EU's plan for Greece is the optimistic forecasts for Greece. The IMF forecast was for the Greek economy to decline by 2.6% of GDP in 2011, yet estimates now are for a decline of 6.8%. As a result even with a second bailout for $130 billion the situation is likely to deteriorate as the economy contracts faster than the IMF predicts and the debt continues to remain unsustainable. With no pro-growth policy in place the situation provides little hope for the Greeks. Kenneth Rogoff, a Harvard economics professor, says he is astounded by the short term psychology that gives financial markets hope that something will work.

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After suffering a deep depression Greece's economy is in 2019 24% smaller than in 2007. It may not be till 2033 that Greece recovers to its precrisis level GDP, says Oxford Economics, a consulting firm. With the creditors of Greece maintaining a tight control and requiring high taxes and high budget surpluses of 3.5% of GDP excluding interest payments, there is very little financial leeway to reduce taxes as the newly elected government of Mr. Mitsotakis of the New Democracy party has stated. Greece spent 8 years till 2018 under an austerity regime set by the European Union overseen by the IMF with eurozone authorites in return for a financial bailout loan package. Spending cuts and tax increases of 40% of GDP led to drop in GDP of 25%. Greece had misrepresented its official spending numbers to eurozone authorites in the years leading upto the crisis, leading to a lack of sympathy from ordinary German taxpayers for the country's situation. Unlike Portugal which was able to increase exports and find ways to reduce the austerity regime with sympathy from Germany, Greece lags behind in foreign investment and is 72nd in the ease of doing business ranking of the World Bank.  Unemployment is falling very slowly and is at 18%. Greece has returned to bond markets with 10 year bond yields of 10%. Growth is stuck at 2%. Pension spending takes up most of the budget, with little left for investment, education and other needs. No parties talk about cutting pensions anymore as a grandparents pension supports many families. The high taxes have hurt the private sector with the most productive people emigrating to other countries in northern Europe and to other parts of the world. About 500,000 left from 2010 to 2017, most are college graduates, and 64% have postgraduate degrees, a survey shows. Most of them will never return as it  is difficult to live and plan a life on a Greek salary. During the financial crises affecting Latin American countries such as Mexico, Brazil and Argentina for decades, the expression lost decade became common. Some like Argentina had repeat situations of lost decade before recovering. Even the U.S. suffered badly suffering close to a lost decade with faulty mortgages causing a crisis in 2009. Only Greece has proved that this can happen for nearly three decades. Greece's experience also sullied the euro currency's image, that was further damaged by the austerity policies across the eurozone's financially weaker countries. Lack of transparency and insider groups unable to take up the national interest and pursuing narrow interests left Greece in a bad position with little sympathy from stronger northern European countries such as Netherlands, Sweden, Germany. Today's political crisis for the centre right and centre left parties in Germany and other Northern European countries such as Scandinavia, Netherlands, also stems from this flawed entry of countries such as Greece into the eurozone with poorly managed finances. A combination of Tech creating low wage jobs, erosion of working class, failure of centrist parties free market policies to protect the working class, shift of jobs to low wage countries such as China, had already eroded the situation. The humanitarian response to what was both a economic and war related migration from North Africa  to Europe only worsened the image of these parties with working class people alienating them further. The eurozone countries and the European Union are only gradually recovering from these errors.     ...

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 Mayor Reiter of Munich, Christian Kern, head of Austrian railway OBB, say here that the actions of Viktor Orban of Hungary gave the German government very little time, only a few hours, to act. The first motivation was to act in a humanitarian way, which is what happened. The German government had asked Orban to register and handle immigrants in an orderly way. In the end with the failure of Orban to do this, the immigrants who would have come north anyway, streamed into Germany and Austria in buses and trains. Clearly Hungary and Germany could have handled this better. The German public provided support with a large number of volunteers helping. One German minister is cited here as saying that if Orban wanted to build a fence he should have done it in a quiet way, as there are fences between Bulgaria and Turkey, and Turkey and Greece and it has not bothered anyone.