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Gerald Seib of the WSJ points out that the winners in the passing of the Republican healthcare bill in the House by a 4 vote margin are Speaker Ryan who never wanted the job in the first place, and president Trump who showed he could cajole Republicans into getting it passed because he likes winning. Now comes the hard part says Seib, when it goes to the Senate- House conservatives are not going to be happy when they find major changes they dislike. If the bill clears the Senate in a modified version Republicans will now have to own any issues with healthcare, including says Seib things that may not work out for pre-existing conditions- or for groups that are disadvantaged, including older people.

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Texas is becoming a swing state for 2024 The deep divisions in the Republican party in Texas with one faction supporting former Governor Rick Perry who was the longest serving Texas governor 2000-2014, and the Bush family and the other faction supporting Mr. Trump. Attorney General Ken Paxton who supports Mr. Trump faces impeachment by Republicans who support Perry-Bush. Texas is the home of Democrat Lyndon Baines Johnson (LBJ) who was John F. Kennedy's vice president and then president, and also of the 2 Bush Republican presidents George H. W. and George W. Bush. It is also a state that has swung to Republicans since 1976, but has a history of Democrats under LBJ.

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Mike Pence on DJT and the Republican Party in 2025. Mike Pence puts a score on the First 100 Days of the DJT administration. The WINS- The Border- Mike Pence says border crossings are down. Crossings were 140,000 in March 2024 under Biden, a year later they were 4000 or 3% of the previous crossings. A video of gangs was shown at the DJT rally in Warren, Michigan, the Linken Riley Act and other efforts to put spotlight on victims of crime- this is doing what even legislation would take time to produce results, putting into effect a democratic mandate and the rule of law, this is not arbitrary or by force. US military capabilities- Mike Pence points to the attention to defense, yet makes no mention of the US Navy. How can the US build when it has stopped building ships to the point that it takes 6-7 years to build simple frigates in the US by European companies, when 55% of shipbuilding is done in China with ships built in 1-2 years. How is the US without restoring its industrial base going to build its Navy? This is a question Mike Pence, the Conservatives in the Republican Party have to answer. Or if they do not take on this question are they using a playbook that is obsolete, was obsolete for a decade, and is now dangerous as if this opportunity to rebuild is not taken USA may lose its leadership in the world. Foreign Investment coupled with US and US Government investment- Mike Pence and Conservatives in the Republican Party, Wall Street interests say the US is losing foreign investment through its tariffs program, and faults it for targeting Europe, Canada, India, America's allies. DJT includes these countries because it makes it easier to come to an agreement with China that offers to abide by the original rules of fair trade when it is not singled out. It is to convey beyond a doubt to China that the US intends to play fair and expects the same from China as one of China's friends throughout its struggle with British and Japanese imperialism and colonialism. In this Wall Street fails to understand what happened to China, the history of Gen. Joe Stilwell in China in fighting the Japanese in China 1920-1945 A fact check shows Mike Pence and Wall Street are not right, foreign investment as shown on the White House site is about $5 trillion in commitments, it includes a commitment by Korean, Japanese and European, America's own companies to invest in American manpower and jobs, in American communities across 51 states.   ...

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Under Mette Frederiksen immigration which reached 21,000 in 2015 was down to a little over 1000 a year. She is a strong fighter for workers and families and labor rights and yet tough on illegal immigration. She has been proven right about this as Britain and the US under Biden are seeing illegal immigration as a threat to workers and labour, are seeing the risks of distraction from illegal immigration doing a serious disservice to workers and families by making it hard to fight for workers and families on wages, cost of living and other issues.  Even with a strong record of fighting for workers and families, Frederiksen was one of the first European leaders to see the dangers of illegal immigration to society. It gave parts of the political spectrum that had no interest all along in workers and families doing well, an issue to run on that would come to cause grave harm to workers and families. This turned out to be the error of Angela Merkel a CDU leader brought up in Communist East Germany, who had no idea of the risks of her approach for open immigration. As Merkel let this chapter unfold it created fissures in Europe, with Tories and Nigel Farage taking Britain out of the EU and laying waste to its economy for 5 years till Labour's Starmer adopted a tough immigration policy and became prime minister in 2024. That danger then spread to the US in 2016 which also suffered as Republicans and Trump did the same in the US around rhetoric but without serious action on immigration till the Lankford- Biden legislation.  That bill would have closed the border with Mexico and ended immigration as an issue forever if passed into law in December 2023, as Senator Lankford says would have happened. Ending immigration as an issue forever alongside foreign wars as an issue, so that a concentrated effort could be made on improving badly damaged lives of workers and families. And on rebuilding badly damaged manufacturing in the US, rebuilding collapsing infrastructure, and competing with better education and healthcare with the large Asian countries China, Japan/ South Korea, India. ...

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This report in the WSJ points to Democrats having won consistently 18 states plus District of Columbia adding upto 242 Electoral College votes in every election since 1992. Democrats need 28 more to cross the needed 270 votes. Republicans consistently having 13 states with 102 electoral College votes. Demographic changes in recent years have shifted to where Hillary Clinton may not need to devote resources to Colorado and Virginia because of a more favorable position there.  Carrying Pennsylvania with these 2 states would put Clinton over the 270 required. Vice Presidential candidate for Clinton, Senator Keane is from Virginia and is popular in the state.  Pennsylvania has a long history favoring Democrats. North Carolina has also seen demographic changes favoring Democrats. The Clinton campaign is focussing ads on these states as well as the swing states of Nevada, Iowa and New Hampshire, as well as Georgia, Arizona and Utah which are becoming competitive for Democrats. By keeping up the effort in Georgia, Arizona and Utah, Clinton hopes to make Trump divert resources there. Other two swing states are Ohio and Florida, but this WSJ report says Clinton has to win only one of the four swing states of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, and North Carolina to go over 270 and Trump needs all four. Of the 20 media markets Clinton or her super PACs have focussed their ads on 16 are in these 4 states. The Clinton campaign is looking at several alternative routes to 270 Electoral College votes, which gives it more flexibility to plan the campaign.  ...

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Cohn and Monkovic of the NYT show how the shift of blacks, hispanics, and white collar professionals is doing to the demographics in the eastern, coastal and southern states, and how this will impact 2016 and future presidential elections in the U.S. This includes North and South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Virginia, and Florida. It means the electoral map may have changed by 2016 and 2020, as the less educated voters in rural areas are balanced by a growing minority and white collar vote in the suburbs and major cities of the South.

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DOGE's Musk led effort puts important work of savings  to make the dollars be spent wisely and prudently, at risk from the style of Elon Musk. Pew Research found earlier in February that 57% of people had "unfavorable" views of Musk, and 37% had "very unfavorable" views of Musk. Musk's style is prone to publicity and showmanship compared to the need for hard patient work needed over many months and years to root out corruption and waste. Lyrarc draws a parallel between DJT efforts to cut waste and fraud, unnecessary spending in 2025 after trillions of dollars in Biden approved spending, with the efforts in 1941 of the Truman Committee to keep a wary eye for waste and fraud in the billions of dollars of wartime spending. The major difference is that the Truman Committee had the support across the aisle from all Americans and Congress and it involved hard patient work 1944-46 under Senator Mead of New York. 1946-47 under Kilgore from Wisconsin, 1947-1948 under Brewster a Republican from Maine, for the better part of a decade. Truman Committee set up the War Production Board and cut waste and corruption. In 1948 Truman Committee was made permanent as the Subcommittee for Investigation into Governmental Affairs. ...

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The main lines of the Message to Congress by the US president in 2025 related to flood of illegal immigration, and illegal fentanyl flows with deaths of Americans in the most vulnerable neighborhoods across 51 states over 12 years, 490,000 deaths, more than Vietnam. "The media and our friends in the Democrat Party kept saying we needed new legislation to secure the border—but it turned out that all we really needed was a new president.” As it turns out the legislation Biden with Republicans led by Senator Lankford negotiated in Feb 2024 did not have the strong action taken in the first 100 days to deter illegal immigration and remove illegal immigrants endangering safety in American neighborhoods. That legislation did not have provisions to bring illegal fentanyl flows into the US to an end with strong action including tariffs on CMC countries Canada, Mexico and China responsible for the fentanyl flows into the US. Transgender was another issue addressed in the speech with DJT clearly stating that their only two genders and against mutilation of bodies, with trust in God about the gender God placed us in as best for us. Other issues were about tariffs action going into effect on reciprocal tariffs on April 2 with all nations including India, Europe, China, Japan, South Korea. DJT cited India for high tariffs, South Korea with 4 times American tariffs, and European nations. The goal was to ensure a level playing field for the US to compete- "what they charge us, we charge them." As explained in an earlier article in the WSJ reciprocal tariffs in the world context mean commodities products would not have price increases for the US consumer, smartphones autos would increase but this would be temporary as these nations play fairly and create a level playing field, and these products manufacturing is shifted to the US. This would mean growth for US auto industry and smartphones coming from inside the US and from India offsetting concentration of production in China. Apple has told the president it will start making inside America investing hundreds of billions in the US from now on. ...

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The Republican party (GOP) chances with Trump as the candidate in 2024 are seen with much skepticism by Karl Rove in the WSJ. Republicans need to keep the presidential field of candidates not too crowded for too long, as pluralities in primaries led to Trump winning a large share of delegates even with about one third of the vote in the early primaries for the 2020 election. Another challenge is the work of Trump supporting leaders in states such as Michigan who want to select delegates by convention and not through primaries. Ron de Santis, Governor of Florida, is seeking the Republican nomination, and faces a strong challenge from the former president. De Santis, 44 years, is from Dunedin, Florida, His mother was a nurse and his father installed Nielsen TV rating boxes, with great-great grandparents immigrating from Italy Benevento, Avellino) in 1904. He studied history at Yale and went to Harvard Law School, Navy Justice School after joining the Navy. De Santis was elected to the US Congress in 2014 and 2016 where he served as the chariman of the sub committee on National Security. He founded the Freedom Caucus in these years. In 2018 he ran for Governor of Florida winning by 0.4%, running again in 2022 he won by about 20 percentage points. ...

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See Tim Walz's full speech at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, August 21, 2024 in his video from CBS News. Lyrarc has selected excerpts from Tim Walz's speech above showing what the Trump Republican party plans to do that will gut Social Security and Medicare, and kill the Affordable Care Act, gut efforts to lower exaggerated cost of medical drugs and healthcare. This excerpt shows what Harris will do to build a better life for workers and families and people across all 51 States, in education, childcare, healthcare, cost of living, and housing costs- "We’ve got something better to offer the American people. It starts with our candidate, Kamala Harris. From her first day — as a prosecutor, as a district attorney, as an attorney general, as a United States senator, and then our vice president — she’s fought on the side of the American people. She’s taken on the predators and fraudsters. She’s taken down the transnational gangs. And she’s stood up to powerful corporate interests. She has never hesitated to reach across that aisle if it meant improving your lives. And she’s always done it with energy, with passion and with joy. Folks, we’ve got a chance to make Kamala Harris the next president of the United States. But I think we owe it to the American people to tell them exactly what she’d do as president before we ask them for their votes. So this is the part — clip and save it, and send it to your undecided relatives so they know: If you’re a middle-class family, or trying to get into the middle class, Kamala Harris is going to cut your taxes. If you’re getting squeezed by prescription drug prices, Kamala Harris is going to take on Big Pharma. If you’re hoping to buy a home, Kamala Harris is going to help make it more affordable. And no matter who you are, Kamala Harris is going to stand up and fight for your freedom to live the life that you want to lead, because that’s what we want for ourselves, and it’s what we want for our neighbors."       ...

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The new fiscal 2012 budget proposed by the Obama administration projects this years deficit will reach $1.6 trillion. This includes the renewal of the Bush tax cuts and the temporary cut to the payroll tax that was part of the tax deal reached in December 2010. This is up from the $1.3 trillion deficit in 2010. At this time both the Democrats and Republicans are choosing to leave Medicare and Social Security out of the picture as they deal with the 15% of total spending that is discretionary and unrelated to defense and security. Both parties are hesitant to propose changes to the popular Medicare and Social Security programs without getting the other party to join in the proposed changes. As this could affect voters perceptions. Social Security, Medicare and other entitlement programs will take up 60% of all federal spending or $2 trillion next year, not counting the interest on the federal debt, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

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George Washington's first Inaugural Address in 1789 from the National Archives speaks to us in 2024, for 2050, like the bells that toll from ancient cathedrals- "The circumstances under which I now meet you... refer to the great constitutional charter (US Constitution) under which you are assembled, and which, in defining your powers, designates the objects to which your attention is to be given. It will be more congenial with the feelings which actuate me, to substitute, in place of a recommendation of particular measures the tribute that is due to the talents, the rectitude, and the patriotism of the characters selected to devise and adopt them. In these honorable qualifications I behold the surest pledges that on one side no local prejudices or attachments, no separate views nor party animosities, will misdirect the comprehensive and equal eye which ought to watch over this great assemblage of communities and interests. So, on another, that the foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality, and the preeminence of free government be exemplified by all the attributes which can win the affections of its citizens and command the respect of the world." "There is no truth more thoroughly established than that there exists in the economy and course of nature an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness; between duty and advantage; between the genuine maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity; since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered, perhaps, as deeply, as finally, staked on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people. ...

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Pete Domenici of the Domenici-Rivlin deficit reduction commission and Sam Nunn are part of the initiative- Strengthening America- Our Children's Future. Other members of this initiative are Warren Rudman and Evan Bayh. Here they provide ideas on how to address the fiscal cliff of automatic cuts in spending that are approaching at year end under an agreement between Republicans and Democrats in Congress. The agreement was designed to offer the worst outcome for Republicans (huge cuts in defense spending) and worst outcome for Democrats (cuts in entitlemnt spending) as a last ditch effort to force the two parties to come to an agreement on deficit reduction. It comes after president Obama failed to accept the Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction commission proposals as a basis for working out a plan and as Republicans in Congress were dead set on avoiding any tax increases. In a recent WSJ editorial praising the CEO statement of 80 U.S. CEO's- organized by the Fix the Debt initiative inspired by Simpson and Bowles- the Journal called the CEO's support for tax increases encouraging and was critical of Republican "deadenders" who flatly opposed any tax increases. Domenici and Rivlin say kicking the can down the road again as Congress has a tendency to do is not the answer and a vigorous effort by responsible members of Congress is needed to come up with deficit reduction using the proposals of Simpson-Bowles commission and Domenici-Rivlin commission. This will end the uncertainty plaguing business confidence that is leading to decline in business investment- decline of 1.3% in the 3rd quarter of 2012- and a weakening of economic recovery. To this end Domenici and Nunn have brought together 35 members of Congress to push forward and held four public forums with experts including hearing from John Taylor, Martin Feldstein and Larry Summers....

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Krauthammer says President Obama has failed to come out openly in support of the Bowles-Simpson commission's recommendations on deficit reduction. The recommendations were made in December 2011. The President's February 2011 budget did not take up these recommendations. He gets a sense that there is too much electioneering in the Obama posture on deficit reduction- being in the best position for the 2012 presidential election rather than a sincere effort. He suggests the Republicans pursue a short term debt ceiling hike of $500 billion containing $500 billion in budget cuts by passing this in the House. And couple this with a call to follow the Simpson-Bowles recommendations which, in one option, cut $1.1 trillion of deductions, credits and loopholes while lowering tax rates across the board to a top rate of 23%. This would give enough time to come up with a thoughtful and open effort with public scrutiny, and is preferable to the current closed door negotiations without the deliberations necessary for decisions of such far reaching consequences. Failing this there is the McConnell Plan B. Boles- Simpson focussed on tax expenditures as a key part of their plan. Martin Feldstein and other experts also point to limiting or eliminating "tax expenditures" (the deductions and loopholes that reduce revenues) as a key part of the solution to the U.S. deficit problem....

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Experts say about 110,000 votes separate Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in the three states of Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania that decided the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. giving Trump the win. Post election reflection in the Democratic party points to a disconnect between the establishment in both parties and the white working class. It is described as something that was not thought enough about even though as pointed out in Lyrarc, and in The Washington Post by columnists, and in news coverage about the inequality movement long before Bernie Sanders appeared in 2015. In the period when banks were favored over millions of homeowners facing foreclosure in 2010-2014, the surging stock market and the zero to to half percent interest on savings that hurt savings of most of the working class and lower middle class without stock investments, and the continuing problems in communities facing job losses from trade for the third decade. The hollowing out of the regions in Ontario from job losses from the Canadian industry helped Justin Trudeau win the Canadian election. In this election it helped Trump in crucial midwestern states, combined with a degree of indifference shown by establishment Democrats. Former Vermont governor Howard Dean is planning to run for chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Bernie Sanders says he backs Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison to be the next chair of the DNC. Jeff Weaver, campaign manager for Sanders, says the problem lies in what has been clear for some time now "that the centrist wing of the democratic party has no standing with working class and middle class  voters in this country." In 2016 only 51% of union households supported Clinton the lowest since 1980, 43% supported Trump. Obama won 59% of union households in 2008 and 58% in 2012 to 40% for Republican Romney. Trump picked up 3% of union households, Clinton lost 7% of union households, creating about a 10 point gap that would be magnified in industrial states where union jobs are concentrated, for about 18% of the people who voted in the election, enough to create the shortfall in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsyslvania. Fed chairman Janet Yellen pointed out the problems at an Inequality conference in Boston in 2014, pretty stark in its reminder that inequality had surged to levels not seen since the depression of the thirties, with 62 million households having a net worth of $11,000. Krugman and other economists had pointed this out on the pages of the NYT. Yet the post election reflection in the media is as if this is some special insight when it was clear for all to see, and covered in depth in Lyrarc for years since 2008. There is voter fatigue after 8 years of one party in power as pointed out by Obama campaign strategist, David Axelrod. The loss of union enthusiasm made the task of  a third term for the Democratic party even more difficult.     ...

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With tumbling popularity of Trump among college educated suburban voters, especially women, elections in suburbs of San Diego, Kansas City, Orlando, Minneapolis and other cities , where Mitt Romney won handily in 2012 are now competitive. This report in the NYT says Trump is so unpopular in these areas that Trump is at risk of losing by double digits in such places.

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New legislation introduced in the U.S. Congress by Senators Orrin Hatch and Ron Wyden giving fast track and trade promotion authority to president Obama faces intense opposition from Democratic Party members of Congress. Only about a dozen House Democrats are considered to be supporting the legislation. Senator Schumer says "I don't believe in these agreements anymore, I've changed." Senator Warren on the left opposes the legislation. Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania says the legislation "as paving the way for another Nafta style deal that costs jobs." The deal if it passes the Senate, would face Republican opposition in the House where 50 or more Republicans are reported to be against the fast track approach and giving too much authority to president Obama without Congressional input. Fast track legislation would allow free trade pacts such as TPP to pass Congress without amendments or procedural delays. Labor groups and auto, other manufacturing companies, oppose the legislation because of the impact on manufacturing, West Coast groups in IT industries favor the legislation. Projections made by Petri, Plummer and Zhao at the Peterson Institute of International Economics, show the impact of Trans Pacific Pact (TPP) free trade pact would be $109 billion in added manufacturing imports to the U.S. to 2025 and $ 53 billion in exports, a net U.S. unfavorable of $56 billion. For IT and services sector the added U.S. exports to 2025 are projected at $42 billion and imports at $8 billion, for net $34 billion. U.S. favorable. Because of the dominant position of the U.S. in IT how much of this $42 billion might still happen without TPP. Other societal impacts also figure in the discussion, such as which sector needs the largest help and impacts the largest number of Americans for a sustained economic recovery in the future. ...

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Of the approximately 411,000 deportation cases at the U.S. immigration courts for deportation of children of illegal immigrants only 593 illegal immigrant students had received relief by halting their deportation by June 2012. This came as a big surprise showing how little the Obama administration had done to help children of illegal immigrants. In its response to the administration the Republican party hoped to reach out to the Latino community and Hispanic immigrants with its own initiative. Senator Marc Rubio of Florida was ready to introduce a bill helping illegal immigrant students by giving them temporary status. At this point President Obama issued his executive order ending deportations for about 800,000 immigrants who came to the U.S. illegally as children.

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Peggy Noonan calls the Bernie movement and Hillary Clinton adopting his efforts to improve incomes and condition of working class people, a major development. The most electrifying line in her view is the one made by the father of a U.S. Army Captain who died in Iraq, Khizr Khan, himself an immigrant, who said about Trump at the convention- "You have sacrificed nothing." She cites Bloomberg, a successful businessman in media and former Mayor of New York, who said about Trump: "I'm a New Yorker, and I know a con when I see one."  Bloomberg traced the history of the Trump business through repeated bankruptcies, lawsuits and missteps, and added "Trump says he wants to run the nation like he's run his business. God help us." And Noonan cites Hillary's speech as getting better as it progressed, not her best, but doing the work, especially with the line- "Don't believe anyone who says "I alone can fix it."  Biden and Kaine hit on this point repeatedly, and that "he doesn't have a clue," with the crowd chanting "Not a Clue."  ...

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On Canada's Justin Trudeau- looking back at his 10 years 2015-2025 mostly inherited the work of his father. He tackled Covid, improved childcare, tackled the renegotiation of trade with Republicans in the US, but lacked the major achievement of the 1970's of Pierre Trudeau setting up Canada as an independent state. The Washington Post looks at the political career of Justin Trudeau. He is the son of former prime minister Pierre Trudeau, a politician from Quebec, who was prime minister from 1968 to 1984 except for one year in 1979-1980. During that period Pierre Trudeau a lawyer practicing labour law in Montreal and educated at the University of Montreal had three significant accomplishments. Canada Act of 1982 passed into law by Queen Elizabeth and the British Parliament, set up Canada as a sovereign state. Prior to this only the British Parliament could amend the Canadian Constitution under the Dominion Act of 1867 under Queen Victoria. As a Quebeker Pierre Trudeau succeeded highly respected Lester Pearson as head of the Liberal Party, and held off the Party Quebecois's effort for separatism in the early 1980's. By 1981 the Canadian Supreme Court 9-0 rejected the Party Quebecois bills that conflicted with the Charter of Rights set up under the Canada Act which protected minorities in Quebec having education in English.   ...

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 A member of the WSJ Editorial Board, says the Republican National Convention was more consequential in the way it continued the theme of getting non- white people to see how the president is taking action on issues that affect them. Mr. Trump cited his work on prison reform legislation, on funding for black colleges and universities, rebuilding broken families, and bringing back jobs in Detroit, Cleveland and Milwaukee. 69% of registered voters are white in 2019 compared to 73% in 2012, according to the Pew Research Center. Getting it right now means he says not merely the defending American workers to prevent "offshoring of jobs, opening the borders, and sending sons and daughters to fight in endless foreign wars," but also how to defend the rights of minorities in America and of working class non-white people. In 2016 the Republican party got 8% of the black vote nationally, which was the lowest in 4 decades excluding the years Mr. Obama ran for election. The effort to highlight the work on behalf of Black people and Hispanic people was to take this number back up as far up as Republicans can to the level reached under Eisenhower. This he says will be good for Republicans and good for the country. Under Eisenhower in 1956 the Republican party gained 36% of the Black vote, the highest ever.  ...

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Galston says the Hillary Clinton campaign strategy may be flawed. Following a president from the same party who has served two terms is difficult for a presidential candidate because of an anti-incumbency mood that sets in after 8 years. Galston cites an expert from Emory University about this costing the incumbent party about 4 percentage points in votes. This would eliminate President Obama's 3.9 percentage point win in 2012, says Galston. Hillary Clinton's cautious campaign sticking to the themes set by the Obama campaign and appealing to the core base of young people, women, minorities, and upscale professionals, runs the risk of not appealing to other voters needed such as the working class white voters. Stanley Greenberg, a pollster with much experience is cited by Galston as showing that the women's vote also is not the same for Democrats. Among unmarried white women for instance it has dropped from a 20 point margin in 2008 for Mr. Obama to a 4 point margin in 2012. By 2014 this was down to 2 points, and in 2015 this is now down to zero margin, with both Republicans and Democrats even among unmarried white women. Unmarried and working class white women are described by Greenberg as looking for a candidate who can help the middle class, with Democrats perceived as the party of government and special interests, making the 2016 election different from the ones before it....