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The best that can be said about all the efforts to stabilize the housing markets is that they help in the context of the credit crisis that hit the economy hard with the Bear Stearns crisis and help to provide an orderly retreat for housing prices and ways to soften the blow to homeowners and lenders caught up in the wave of foreclosures. But housing prices themselves have not declined anywhere near what one would expect. In fact BW, p17, April 7, 2008 shws percentage changes for existing homes from Feb 2007 to Feb 2008 with data from the National Association of Realtors. And they are surprising when you consider sales for the northeast down 26% and prices up slightly 0.4%. Elsewhere the sales are down 29% in the Western states for a 13% price decline, sales down 20% for a 7% price decline in the Midwestern states, and sales are down 22% for a 9% decline in the Southern states. Jobless rates are 3.9% in Austin, Texas and Birmingham, Alabama and only Detroit, St Louis and Cleveland have jobless rates above 6%. What this suggests is that the unemployment situation has not seen the brunt of this credit tightening and drop in capital investment. As house prices have not declined much declines over 10% mostly in the western states and places like Detroit but not in the northeast and across the south, and unemployment still low across many regional communities, consumption spending has not seen the brunt of this credit tightening. Once tightened credit conditions hit payrolls as companies cut their workforce and unemployment moves up then expect to see greater housing price declines as more houses go into foreclosures, and then expect consumption spending to feel the impact which would reduce sales and further trim payrolls as companies run their factories at less and less production capacity. This sequence would continue and bring the economic crisis to more and more parts of the country in a manner that we have hardly see upto this point. What we have seen is the unfolding of a collapse of mortgage securities firms and of mortgage securites insurance providers like ACA, and with it the huge writedowns about $150 billion taken by the investment houses and the banks. And this has happened as a wave of foreclosures took place in 2006. And the collapse of Bear Stearns with the effects felt in global stock markets. In the communities themselves in the areas of consumption spending and in jobs the conditions will only now begin to be felt and the real impact not felt till the end of 2008 and into 2009 with the Fed action to shore up confidence adding several months in slowing the process. See the link to BW, Bernanke the Reluctant Revolutionary, where the BW estimate is that Americans took on about $3 trillion in additional debt between 2000 and 2006 from what they would have taken if they had followed the trajectory of spending patterns that had prevailed upto that point, with their recent free spending ways. It would take abot 3 to 4 years conservatively for Americans to work down all that debt. Another way of saying this is that consumption spending is going to take a big hit and with it sales of companies and consequently higher unemployment and more part time labor force with less benefits, which would tend to depress consumption even more. The winds of housing, credit, consumption and unemployment would all hit the economy in about 12 months time. Credit will further tighten as BW estimates about $130 billion of additional writedowns still expected....

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Everything is moving in the wrong direction in terms of sustaining growth according to Nicholas Lardy of the Peterson Institute of International Economics. China's exports dependent economy will see a serious downturn as export markets in the USA and Europe dry up in 2009 as the deep recession takes shape. This could lead to growth rates going down to 6-7%.Other areas that propelled Chinese growth areinfrastructure investment and housing construction. Worried about rising housing prices the government last year out in place measures to dampen housing purchases, with tighter restrictions on second mortgages by banks and tighter lending for first mortgages. With house prices flat or falling now in Chinese cities many buyers are holding off for a better price in the future. Slower growth in housing will mean less demand for migrant labor and less demand for imports of cement and steel from other countries. China's lower imports of machinery, machine tools and heavy equipment for industry and infrastructure building will affect especially the German and Japanese economies. Germany has become the world's largest exporting nation in part by selling industrial equipment to China, its second most important market for machinery. In the first 7 months of 2008 these exports were still expanding at 20%. But these exports are likley now expanding at a rate of 10% and may slip to single digit growth in 2009, according to Olaf Wortmann, an economist with the VDMA engineering association. A good example of what is happening is the German manufacturers of textile machinery which derive 95% of their sales from overseas and mostly from China. These orders were down 42% in the first 7 months of 2008. With declining consumer demand in the US demand from China's exporting factories is declining. These figures and the accelerating slowdown in the US consumer markets suggest there will be a serious downturn in Chinese exports of textiles and other goods. The impact on German growth rates which are going below 2% in 2008 is to lead to 0% or declining growth in 2009. A similiar situation is ocurring for imports of heavy equipment from Japan. Orders of Japanese machine tools by China declined by 25% in September according to the Japan Machine Tool Builder's Association and Komatsu's shares have declined by 70% since their June peak. Part of the Chinese impact on global growth is mitigated by the fact that at market exchange rates China's economy is still only 6% of the world economy at market exchange rates and 10% at purchasing power parity. Chinese domestic consumer demand is $1.2 trillion for 2007 compared to the USA's $9.7 trillion, which also suggests how heavily China was dependent on the American consumer and how the missing American consumer will be hard to replace and the growth rates of 10-12% may be a thing of the past, with 6-7% being more realistic. ...

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50% of European CFO's surveyed by CFO magazine and 60% of Asian CFO's think the dollar decline is permanent devaluation compared to a third of US CFO's. The Commerce Dept figures show January exports 16.6% higher than a year earlier, and the trade deficit down by 7% in 2007 vs 2006 which will accelerae in 2008 with the larger dollar decline. As long as European and Asian economies continue to grow a bit slowly but not in a recession like the US the positive effect of growing exports should continue. So far for the last 6 quarters according to the WSJ exports have contributed 1 percentage point on average to economic growth measured at annual rate while the housing slump has subtracted just over one percentage point on average. So this is no small feat for exports and it has helped make the economy more resilient to the shocks of housing and oil price. As long as the growth overseas is not affected to a great extent by the economic slowdown in the US exports can continue to play this role. As the housing crisis is primarily a US and UK phenomenon this should not seruiously damage the economies of Asia and Europe and their ability to take in US exports....

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How will deflation in the USA affect jobs in China? Not just Roubini talks about a deep recession. Kenneth Rogoff, an economist who has argued with Stiglitz's view of things during other banking and financial crises in Asia in the nineties and has been an optimist about things compared to Roubini's serious concerns, is now talking about a lost decade. Early on a lot was said of and made of the housing crisis in Sweden, where with strong government intervention and decisive action to capitalize and take stakes in banks, things were back to normal in a few years. One thing that Sweden did not face was a global slowdown and global systemic effects of credit crises worldwide so it now looks like a different situation. Here you have a series of things happening at the same time, housing price collapse, foreclosures, higher unemployment, no savings and high debt for consumers and banks foreshadowing possible collapse in consumer spending, and declines in capital spending, tight or no credit for small and larger business, global slowdown including China and India slowing exports significantly for the developed countries of USA, Europe and Japan. Interest rates near zero in the USA and Japan and trillion dollars already committed in the USA for bailouts and assistance, even before the ful force of the economic downturn has hit and this is the beginning of the downturn. ...

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Wuhan has announced  only 3 new confirmed cases since March 18. Restrictions on travel were lifted after a 77 day lockdown on the city, allowing inbound and outbound travel. Some restrictions on housing complexes have been tightened after reports of dozens of asymptomatic cases. The number of asymptomatic cases remains unknown. There is a fear of a second outbreak and authorites are staying vigilant, as it is feared that the first outbreak was worse than previously thought. Epidemiologists, intelligence agencies, and health experts believe the number of cases reported in Wuhan and China are undercounted. This could be they say a result of local officials wanting to present a better picture, of not enough testing in the early stages, not counting people who died at home, and including people who died of pneumonia under pneumonia instead of coronavirus. Dr Birx, head of the U.S. response effort,  says the U.S. lists people who died of pneumonia in New York as coronavirus deaths because of how widespread it is there, hitting seven people in a thousand. In addition there is a problem for all countries in counting people without symptoms. No one even knows how big that is, and Dr Birx in the U.S. says it is important to find out. ...

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The P1 coronavirus variant from Brazil is seen in 200 of 877 cases in ski resort in Whistler, British Columbia. Helath officials have little knowledge of how this variant entered Canada's western province. This report says the housing shortage for hospitality workers is worsening the pandemic with 6-8 hospitality workers living together and no chance to limit the spread.   The decision by the state health officials not to screen with testing for which variant is responsible for an infection of covid is coming under criticism, as reported in The Guardian. This allows the variant to spread with no knowledge about where it is happening so that countermeasures can be taken. In the absence of this type of screening and testing one is flying blind, says this report. Recent steps to contain the spread in India advocated by prime minister Modi in India give micro-containment a big role, with screening and testing and detection of incidence of mutation becoming critical. To do this the health system has to be well prepared and have full support and direction from a unified authority bringing together every arm of government at the federal, state and local levels. Response has to be very quick and resource allocation proper from testing labs, people on the ground, vaccine supplies, and vaccination drive effective. ...

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Carrie Lam, the chief executive of Hong Kong, who has struggled through the crisis triggered by the extradition bill she introduced has decided to finally withdraw it. Protests have gone beyond the issue of the extradition bill as Lam herself agrees. She pointed out in her video message that the protests are about housing, land supply, income distribution, social justice, mobility, and many social, economic issues in addition to political ones. Protestors have five demands and the freeing of all those arrested is not something Lam has agreed to. Lam says some protestors violated the rule of law. Protest leaders including Joshua Wong, see the withdrawing of the extradition bill as poor timing. Hong Kong has seen 13 weeks of protests and the pictures are all over the world showing how much the issues and the the lack of responsiveness of Carrie Lam has resulted in this standoff.  Lam would like to replace the confrontations with police "with conversations." Why she took so long to meet or seek meetings and conversations is not fully understood and will be discussed for a long time. This brought China to the brink of a crisis that would have repercussions including on trade issues, when it needed to be handled in a better way. ...

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The SEC filed civil charges against Goldman Sachs in the Abacus case. Goldman the SEC charged, sold mortgage securities knowing that a hedge fund firm that crafted what went into the securities hoped to profit from a collapse of the housing market. Now Goldman has settled this case for 550 million dollars. A separate criminal probe on whether the company committed securities fraud continues. Analysts had expected the settlement to be closer to $1 billion, as well as the resignation of some senior executives at Goldman including Blankfein.

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Miguel Angel Fernandez Ordonez, resigns as Governor of the Bank of Spain. He was appointed by former President Zapatero and has come under strong criticism for not identifying problems and taking earlier action about problems with the cajas savings banks which were combined to form Bankia. Bankia's bad debt problems come from Bancaja and Banco de Valencia. Both are based in Valencia, with bad loans to the construction sector in the housing bubble that collapsed in 2009. The 13.9 million euro pension for Mr Izquierdo, one of Bancaja's executives has also come under strong criticism.

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Spain's prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, accepts EU and IMF aid for recapitalizing Spain's banks. Rajoy tells a news conference in Spain on June 10th, 2012, "nobody pressured me," he did this because it would "help the credibility of the European project." The Partido Popular took decisive steps to improve Spain's competitiveness during the first 6 months of the new administration, but was caught by surprise by the problems in Bankia, a bank put together from failing cajas savings banks. The cajas savings banks were heavily involved in the housing bubble in Spain.

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Thoughtful opinion by experts that the rate cut or a series of rate cuts may just not do it and the economic growth will slow to 1.5% or nearer that number next year. The housing declines, lower consumer spending, and the credit crunch won't disappear with the rate cuts. The effects on the dollar are another factor. See the article on how ewe may be entering a new period in the global economy where the US slows and the rest of the world pushes ahead in the wsj Sept 20, 2007.

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New mortgage plan announced by the Federal Housing Agency on November 10, is just a drop in the bucket and helps only a few homeowners, it barely scratches the surface of the problem. It helps thousands but more than 4 million homeowners or 9% of borrowers wit mortgages were either behind on their payments or in foreclosure in June according to Mortgage Bankers Association. There were 765,000 foreclosures in the third quarter. This will have intensified since then with the October credit crisis and the huge job losses in the fourth quarter.

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Italy raised 18 billion euros in a record auction on Oct. 18, 2012, meeting its needs for the rest of the year. Italy's yield dropped to 4.64% on Oct 18. Spain raised 4.6 billion euros at 5.32%. Italy sold most of the BTP Italia bonds to Italian citizens with a 4 year bond linked to Italian inflation and designed for Italian retail investors with a new eBay type internet platform, including a loyalty premium of extra 40 basis points. Italian retail investors have 8 trillion euros in net private wealth and household wealth in Italy is more than 4 times the sovereign debt, according to the Bank of Italy. This is a big difference compared to Spain, because the interest on the bonds remains in Italy for consumption and investment. Spanish households are highly indebted after the housing bubble.

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The problems in consumer spending, housing prices remain aeven after the crisis in the credit markets appears to have calmed down. And corporate bankruptcies and bond defaults remain a problem as well as the billions of the $945 billion IMF estimated losses that have not yet been taken. According to Standard and Poors some 122 issuers with debt around $102 billion are vulnerable to default. Even if like Rip Van Winkle one slept through the Bear Stearns crisis and the financial crisis one would things largely similiar to that before the current settling of the credit markets and the dangers to consumer spending and from housing price declines and foreclosures, corporate bankruptcies and corporate bond defaults and more losses not previously revealed, much the same as before and just as dangerous as before.

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Are there constituent "nations" or "nationalities and regions" in Spain? Seven people drafted the Spanish Constitution that was signed by King Juan Carlos I of Spain in 1978. Two from Catalan region wanted the word "nations" instead of "nationalities and regions" instead the pro-Spain supporters including aformer minister in the Franco government wanted to keep the words "nationalities" to limit the interpretation of self-government to one that would be within Spain. Today a far right party wants to se the clauses that give self government to regions and nationalities removed from the Constitution. Catalan independence supporters say the Constitution allows the right to call a referendum. Left parties see the promises for housing, healthcare and pensions as too vague in the Constitution. What was seen as a huge advance in the early years of democracy in Spain are now seen as creating room for dissension and strife in Spain, with a fragmentation in the political parties and loss of confidence in the two main parties.   ...

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AIG's bad bets on housing were made right under the supervision of a "college' of global bureaucrats and regulators in the Office of Thrift Supervision, according to its acting director Polakoff, says the WSJ editorial.

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Who is this sandwich generation in America? The term refers to young people facing the high cost of raising children and lack of affordability of childcare as well as caring for elderly parents some in their eighties. The problem is acute for these families in 2024 who have already experienced the covid pandemic, loss of jobs, loss of family members. Men and women are squeezed from both sides as they care for children and elderly parents without assistance from the government. Harris's plan in America for childcare assistance of $6000, payment assistance for down payment on buying a home, assistance for starting a small business, increasing supply of housing by building 3 million new homes, has young people with children uppermost in mind.

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WSJ reporter Bob Davis writes this report on the end of the China economic miracle in 2014 as he completes a 4 year assignment covering China. He says China's economy is slowing rapidly and he is pessimistic abou the future. Construction cranes visible across China's skyline says Davis, can no longer be interpreted as growth inducing. With rows upon rows of empty flats in third and fourth tier cities which account for the bulk of the increase in housing construction, the consequences of a debt fueled construction boom are easy to see. Davis cites the IMF on the dangers of credit fueled growth in China- only 4 countries have experienced as rapid an increase in credit to GDP ratio in 5 years. Each of the 4 countries Brazil, Ireland, Spain and Sweden experienced a sharp decline in GDP growth and banking crises following the credit bubble. Estimates of debt to GDP are as high as 250% for China. Krugman, Roubini and other economists have warned about the credit bubble, saying China is no exception to the rule for the risks posed by such a bubble. ...

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With so much coverage of other aspects of China,  to really understand China and Xi Jinping one has to understand the rural urban situation in China. Xi's long experience as a teenager in the cultural revolution of Mao was in rural areas, the 8 years he spent there till the age of 22, as this report by James Areddy with help of Yijun, Cheng and Qi aptly shows. It traces the shift and mass migration to cities starting with Deng's modernization drive in 1979. This shift of labor to city and town factories as the U.S. and Europe shifted factories and production to China is the story of our times. How it has both helped and hurt China and how it has become the dominant issue of our times, and a lesson for India in the middle of its own modernization and shift of labor to cities. It has helped China modernize with the shift during 1979 to 2016 and run into a road block with president Trump leading a movement in the U.S. of people most hurt by the outsourcing of factories and production to China. It was not meant to be this way. Yet the shift also led to ripping up the fabric of communities and towns with loss of factories across America over three decades. Because China is a large country the impact was huge decade after decade, leading to a backlash against lost jobs in the U.S. and in Europe.  Xi Jinping has romantic view of rural China as he spent 7 years in Shanxi province rural areas during the cultural revolution under Mao. During this period he toiled as part of farm labor alongside villagers which allowed him to get to know villagers and farmers in the countryside well, and formed his view of the world around him. As it is described in a description of the man in Chinese sources- "He arrived at the village as a slightly lost teenager and left as a 22 year old man determined to do something for the people."  China's system separated migrants from city dwellers not  giving same rights to better education, to schools and housing, and official documents separating the two, city dwellers and migrant populations from rural areas. As a result as China modernized and population shifted -shown here in excellent graphic charts over four decades- in 1979 from about 80% in rural areas and 20% in urban the shift goes to 50-50 by 2001. Today it is 40-60 with 60% in rural areas but a population of 40% suffering from severe inequalities and  low incomes. So that GDP per capita of $10,000 for China is deceiving. The real incomes in average disposable income is about $4300 in urban and $1700 in rural area, according to National Bureau of Statistics. High school education is hard enough to get in rural areas, medical care is very basic and the $1700 would hardly get a room in low income housing in a large town in China, says premier Li Keqiang. Keqiang did his masters thesis on urbanization and has studied this shift from his college days. Just as in Gandhi's India, Mao's China is the story of the villages, with 128,000 villages for 600 million people in Mr. Xi Jinping's anti-poverty drive. Hong Kong other issues have to be understood in the context of these concerns of China's leadership today- the sense that strong central leadership alone can keep the country together and bring a decent life to the people in the villages and in the countryside outside the cities.  Modernization of cities still set in the context of China's vast rural population and essential to its full uplift and progress. Xi has allocated $80 billion each year to bring roads, schools, medical facilities, and other amenities including electricity and modern heating. The idea now is to shift people back to the villages, find opportunities for jobs and livelihoods in farming, tourism with guesthouse facilities, and other occupations in the villages. The villages are being turned into attractive places to live one by one in this party drive and providing new enthusiasm and support for the party's efforts. India can learn from this experience in China. The western nations of the U.S. and Europe can no longer and will no longer undertake the wholesale shift of factories with loss of jobs to China or India to offer the prospect of bringing these countries to the kind of urbanization and overall prosperity of small nations like Japan and South Korea, which are a tiny fraction of the population of China and India+ Pakistan + Bangladesh. As a result China is changing strategy now with a return to some aspects of the informal economy in Chengdu with street peddlers and tiny retail, and return of migrants back to better built and improved villages in the countryside. A better life than in cities is possible this view says for people from these rural areas, if the rural areas are given modern facilities and construction and resources are allocated, job creation locally tackled. The villages can offer better air quality, better quality of life where villagers who earlier migrated to cities with ownership of land, when they are modernized with better roads and have better facilities for education, housing and healthcare, better amenities. The new approach is to strike a good balance for urbanization, by modernizing and investing in villages and small towns, so that cities can cope and overall life can be better than with mass migration and wholesale urbanization. It is also a balance that works well for the U.S. and Europe which can redirect manufacturing to their home regions as part of a better distributed and balanced supply chain than the one that was unwittingly built over the last three decades.    ...

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Luis Gutierrez, Charirman of the subcommittee on Financial Institutions and Consumer Credit, has a bill in Congress that is presented as a reform effort by the lending industry, many Republicans and some consumers. It would allow payday operators in the $50 billion payday lending industry, to charge what amounts to an annual percentage rate of 391%. Rep. Maxine Walters described the bill this way, "we've got to resist any attempt to make it look as if we are cracking down, when in fact we are opening the door to more abuse." This is what Countrywide's Mozilo does in a interview with BW, that he gave at the time the housing and mortgage crisis was breaking open in 2008. And this is the way those in both political parties in Congress, lobbyists, and businessmen who profited from all the unethical things that went on in the housing lending industry, all worked together to undermine the foundations of the country's economy by putting toxic assets at the centre of the credit and banking system of the US. They did this by saying that they were helping the poorer classes get access to housing, and used the term "a piece of the American dream," which seems to be the phrase that opens all sorts of caves in the American imagination, like Ali Baba and his magic lamp and his magic phrase did in Arabian times. And so the NYT editorial writer, facing the greater evil suggests that a smaller evil, an usurious rate of 36% that is an option afforded to military families is a desirable option, when at that rate the loan numbers would double in less than 3 years. All this when the government at federal state and local levels could assume this among the many activities it already undertakes, because it does best those activities, such as some of the public transportation and other services. The government bank could require proof of desperate need, and provide loans for purposes of medical care, care of elderly, care of children, educational needs, food and shelter needs, at rates of 10-15% to make up for losses in loans not repaid, and run it as a nonprofit. Capitalism is also of the good kind and the bad kind, the 391% payday loan capitalism or the loans at pricing that made them unaffordable to low income people, or loans to low income people who did not have incomes to afford housing (where the risk was then passed on to the owners of the securities after a false sertification of A rating had been obtained by undermining the rating process) is a bad kind of capitalism, and the 36% usurious rate for military families is of the tolerably bad kind of capitalism, and the 10-15% kind of payday government sponsored loan is of the good kind of capitalism. And critical to its understanding is what experience has taught us in the last 100 years- that for this good kind of capitalism, there is a critical social role for the government to play. ...

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Argentina, South Africa, Mexico, India, UK, European Union elections are taking place by June 2024 and US in November 2024. Yet it is misleading to lump them together. Much discontent is there to see as in the UK with cost of living, governance, time wasted on Brexit, India with lingering effects of the pandemic on rural voters, caste based voting. In India protest vote of lower caste Dalit voters in Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra, even with government support in forms of universal healthcare, food for poor households during pandemic extended, cooking gas, housing support, clean tap water, direct bank account deposit to accounts of poor and farmers. Yet in the states in the south and east in Orissa and Andhra Pradesh, and generally in the south the BJP vote count increased so that losses in the north were made up leaving the percentage of vote for India for Modi's BJP party at 37 percent in 2024 instead of 38% in 2019, losing the absolute majority 240 seats of 543 yet having campaigned heavily for partners who added seats 294 of 543. In the UK Keir Starmer may see some vote preference for Labor erode yet the Conservative record is in shambles even conservative experts will say, as in India where the opposition parties offer no prospects for the future and little track record for making India the second or third largest economy in the world which the BJP has set and shown to have achieved over 10 years by taking India to No. 5 in the world economies. ...

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When even the NYT, or the host of CBS television Face the Nation does it poorly, how are independent voters, and voters leaning Democrat or Republican, or leaning not vote, to have a clear idea of policies?  This review of Trump statements about Harris statements on red meat, ICE, law enforcement, fails to get down to the policies she has stated at Wake Tech in North Carolina and in other places before this. It also does not address the Trump plan to end tax on Social Security which would lead to about $550 going to seniors but lead to a cut of 25% in Social Security in 2032, defunding Social Security and Medicare. Immigration- the first thing Harris would do as president is to sign the legislation written by Republicans Lankford, McConnell with the backing of the party and agreed to by president Biden that will in effect close the Border with Mexico and fix the asylum policy, not done in three decades. Cost of Living- Harris policy on price gouging is for taking the action that companies follow and play by the rule on pricing, so that they do not take unfair advantage of the public. It is not about passing a law or fixing prices. This has been done in Texas and in Kentucky, other states. Restrict rent to 5% increases and increase the supply of new houses by building 3 million new homes, $100 billion to be allocated for fixing housing supply shortages.   ...

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U.S. presidential candidate Mitt Romney is questioned about the depth of his beliefs by John Harwood, at the November 9, 2011, Oakland University, Michigan, televised presidential debate. Harwood asked Romney if his positions on issues "are rooted in something deeper than the fact that you are running for office." Romeny's response was that he had been married for 42 years, and "been in the same church all my life," and worked at the same firm Bain & Co. and Bain Capital, for 25 years, that he was a man of steadiness and constancy." On key economic issues such as revival of the auto industry and foreclosures, both major issues in Michigan, Romney continued to maintain that the loans made by the government to Chrysler and GM were a mistake. Oakland University is only half a mile from Chrysler headquarters. This view was challenged by Rick Snyder, Republican governor of the state of Michigan, who said- "it wasn't just one or two companies that were at risk, but the entire national suply chain." On foreclosures Romney maintained his position that the government should let the market work, even if this means millions of foreclosures. Romney said: "Markets work. When you have government play its heavy hand, markets blow up and people get hurt," putting the blame for the housing crisis on Fannie Me and Freddie Mac, agencies with a government guarantee that encouraged indiscriminate housing loans. ...

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Roubini at NYU and Rosenberg at Merrill Lynch see serious damage this time- prolonged and serious downturn. Roubini sees the auto loans and credit cards next as another bubble unraveling. The consumer may have already been affected and the effects there may be serious and lasting in 2008 and 2009. Exports may not boost manufacturing that much as to make up for the severe impact of a number of things-tight credit, consumer spending declines, housing bust, and escalating oil prices. The losses from the housing and mortgage bubble has been estimated at around $400 billion, Roubini thinks that the figures approaching $100 billion that the candidates are saying they would stimulate the economy by are nowhere near the $300-$400 billion needed and the government cannot afford that magnitude of stimulus. Experts are saying that the losses of firms are not revealed as firms are not saying much, and there is a lot more to come which will act as a further drag on growth. Roubini thinks this one will be severe and a recovery may not be in the works to 2010 or 2011. Some stimulus after the election and rate cuts may just make it appear that things may reverse themselves, but there is just too much going on. The consumer has human feet that are bound to falter at some point with all this burden stacked onto him....

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For years Peter Bernstein has watched the US markets, from the postwar recession of 1958 till today. He is now 89 years old. He sees 2 culprits one is oversecuritization and the second is years of overborrowing by financial institutions and consumers alike. He rules out a V shaped business cycle. he sees an L shaped business cycle or a a flat U. It would be a flat U because it will take a long time for the memory to recover from the excesses of recent years and the consequences. He remembers the early years after World War II, it took a very long time to get the depression out of business and banking decisions. And he says one of the things that helped people take risks was the feeling that the central bank had got things right and knew what it was doing but he says the Fed too now is going to feel what it should do now is less clear. So the feeling going forward will be to be very careful. He thinks this will take a long time to clear up, much longer than people think. Not 2009, he is sure they are wrong, there has to be a respite along the way is how he puts it. He says until credit is going up instead of down you can't have growth. And he thinks housing has to be a part of this. And then there is the uncertainty. What if, what if China goes into a recession? His point that " nothing can go in one direction forever." And China has been growing like this for twenty years since the 1990's. It just does'nt go on forever. and there has to be a respite. Again here him speak: first he goes to housing, he says somehow housing has to flatten out. Then he shifts to say "we have to underpin the consumer" and with that he shifts to saying this is why its different, and to saying this is why its like nothing we have had before. And then he turns to investment, saying its investment that made the V at the bottom of the cycle but he doesn't see the consumer in the USA coming up with a positive till he has worked out the excesses of overspending. Exports or consumer overseas? He thinks they maybe too infected by us to do it. Though Asian growth will help....